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Post by LesserEvil on May 6, 2005 16:45:46 GMT
Need advice? Need to know a specific weakness or strategy against a certain army, or special character? Well this is the place to ask!
Example: how do DE beat Nids!
Answer: Well there really is no one way, the best ways that I have found out is to have 2-3 Sniper squads sitting shooting at the big bugs, while having 1-2 raider squads armed with night shields and dissys, and splinter cannons, drive by and mow down the Nid squads. Also having a wyche squad or 2 is nice, just wait for the enemy to get closer and assault the weakest closest thing, you will usually wipe out the squad, and just move on to another. Also 2-3 Ravagers would be good, with night shields and dissies they can stay out of range of just about anything, while pumping out 12 shots a turn. If the big bugs get closer an Agoniser wielding archon will usually kill the big nasty’s with the 6 attacks on a charge. Other then that good luck, and watch out for the biovores they are the equivalent of Nid ordinance, sure str 3 is nothing special but they can really hurt, when it lands on 10-20 warriors.
Example: what do I do against orks in low point games?
Answer: well orks are the one thing that can crush DE in close combat, however they are only str 3 and In 4 for the basic troops so even if they do get to you, you go first 90% of the time. Splinter cannons, and disintegrators work wonders against the huge tide. Things to worry about are all the assault weapons, ork have everything, EVERYTING that can shoot on the move, so stay out of the 24” range with your vehicles, otherwise 3 rocket shots from each squad can send anything to the ground (Orks get up to 3 heavy weapon choices per squad). Best things to do are to stand and shoot however a nice 5-8 man incubi unit can mow down through a 20 strong hoard very well, just be warned ork weapons reduce armor saves to 4+ so don’t count on your armor protecting you. (A good unit are hellions or warpbeasts in CC.) Also a talos can hold down a large squad for a good long portion of the game just make sure those nasty powerfists are far away.
Example: What is an Asurmen.
Answer: Well he is an ancient Phenix lord of the eldar. He has a lot of nasty abilities. For example he can choose to go last in combat (normal In of 7) and anything striking him will need 6+ just to hit. Another thing is he has a 3++ save and that does not go away. He also has a dire sword, which is nasty if it wounds, and Str and To 4. Thus making him hart to kill and very annoying.
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Post by LesserEvil on May 7, 2005 16:00:45 GMT
Partial Update !!
Tactics of Imperial Guard.
There are tree things that any player needs to know about IG.
#1 IG can have lots and lots of heavy weapons.
#2 IG can out number their enemies 3:1 if not more.
#3 IG have tanks to back up their numbers.
Now keeping that in mind IG have a low Ballistic skill to make up for the fact that they have so many heavy weapons. Also with 4th edition IG had to go through a lot of changes because now they can see and shoot through all the annoying light infantry and go right for the heavy stuff. But there is a downside all the nice heavy weapons can now be shot at, because they cant be screened by meat shields. With that in mind IG have developed certain tactics to counteract their difficulties. Instead of taking minimum numbers of troops and max numbers of heavy weapons. They now usually take 10 man squads with each heavy weapon, that way 9 normal troopers need to die before any weapons are lost.
Now covering that, here come the actual tactics that IG commonly use.
#1 Virtually no IG army of 1k+ functions without a few tanks. To name one basilisk, those are some very nasty tanks, with an indirect capacity to fire 10 -12 feet they are a big pain on a large table. The good thing is one’s you are within 36” it can’t fire indirectly at you, the bad new is it can move into LOS and shoot you. Another common tank is Leman Russ those can function in many forms and with a high Front armor value it can be hard to kill. These tanks can be made against infantry with 2-3 heavy bolters, or it can drop shells on the enemy with a 24” Demolisher cannon or 72" Battle cannon, and as we all know ordinance can hurt. There are plenty other tanks in the IG armory but those will not be covered here, for more information ask directly.
#2 With all the tank backup the IG will have a heavy amount troops to back up any assault (as if they would). Each IG army is broken apart into several sections (which will not be covered because that would take way to much time). The most important section to remember is the HQ section, usually 5 members. Those officers are heavily armored and usually armed with a power fist or 3, now usually it is not a problem because their normal armor is 4+ and their initiative is 3. These officers usually lack an invulnerable save, but they are not very important in CC. They supply leadership of 9 to all squads within 12” (normal guard squads are ld 7, or 8 if they have an officer). If there is a commissar in that squad then it is possible to re-roll the failed LD test but it comes at a price. Because of the higher LD that squad is considered extremely dangerous because they give their LD to any squad that attempts shooting or moral tests for CC. This should be a priority squad to eliminate.
Other guard squads are formed into 3 sections. #1 the infantry sections contains between 10-20 members armed with a powerfist on a sergeant and an assault weapon (which may or may not be a flamer). #2 Infiltrators, are members between 5-10 containing a 2-3 heavy weapons a 4+ save as well as a possible powerfist or power weapon. These guys are used for suicidal missions to take out enemy tanks or heavy weapon squads, before they themselves are overrun. #3 heavy weapon squads, containing between 1-3 heavy weapons and between 5-10 members. Each heavy weapon handled by 2 guardsman (on huge bases) these squads lack power fists but they make up with it by lass cannons or heavy bolters.
This concludes Tactics IG for the moment, if anyone has further questions feel free to ask.
Edit: for the correct names and ranges.
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 9, 2005 19:24:51 GMT
Okay then...
with Necrons, would it a) be wise to charge the nightbringer in CC with an Archon with all the good upgrades. b) Try to flank them with Ravagers and Raiders.
c) Take on a Necron Lord with ordinary warriors
Last time i fought the Nightbringer in CC, I used my Talos. teh Nightbringer slaughtered in before I even got to strike back.
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Post by Archon Faraith on May 9, 2005 19:34:28 GMT
Same for any army, when there is a NightBringer you ignore it. Against necrons all you ever do is kill things that go towards the phase out limit. Charge in your archon to remove the reserecting totting lord and butcher him with powered weapons. Everything else should be killing warriors and destroyers and immortals.
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Post by LesserEvil on May 10, 2005 3:40:31 GMT
Necrons can be a big problem for dark eldar (emphases on can be . While its true that the nightbringer is monster in CC it is possible to kill it there, however you don’t want to ever have to be in that situation.
For two reasons
1) Nightbringer IGNORES saves, all saves no matter what they are. So charging in with an archon might take it out, but if not then SPLAT goes the archon. Charging with 10-20 warriors with agoniser/poisoned blades wielding succubus (yes I would recommend them here) that will do it, but that brings out problem 2.
2) The nightbringer can whip out a template (ordinance) weapon which will hit and kill everyone around it, I am not 100% sure if it ignores Invulnerable saves but assume so (need to check my codex 1st). Not only that but if it does go down it explodes with a str 8 ordinance (I think, not sure yet) which definitely ignores all kinds of saves.
As Archon Faraith pointed ignoring it is the best option, but shooting is fun especially if it is next to an enemy warrior or other squad, because the explosion will kill his own troops. So if possible take it out. Again it is a huge (360pts or so) waste of points, for those just get 3 sniper squads and shoot the thing. Just be warned it goes through all terrain so it will go right through building.
For part B of your question
Against necrons nightshields are a must on all your Ravagers, not only will that put most necrons out of range, but it will prevent them from rapid-firing on you. Raiders with Dissies, and terro/horrorfixes will also work well (because necrons are not fearless).
A personal advice against these is using 9 grotesques and 1 archon as a flanking force, when those hit combat due to Grotesques special rule the archon alone will rip though the squad after squad, and nothing short of destroyers will be able to touch you at range.
Sure thing that’s very easy, just give the succubus an agoniser and watch it rip through the squad. Just a note of warning necrons are much harder to kill then SM in CC, because they get the 3+ save then they get a 4+ WBB roll if their HQ is within 6” which is a big pain, so overrun them if possible.
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Post by Archon Zylath Deschain on May 10, 2005 9:21:11 GMT
if anyone needs to know anything about guard ask me ive been playing them for as long as i can remember by the way isnt the battle cannon 36" maybe thats changed but the good thing is the new hellhounds just two of these fantastic machines desimated an ork army with front armour 13 and a 24" template weapon they massacre light armoured horde armys such as orks, nids and other guard armies shame it doesnt make them fall back any more but meh you carnt have eveything here is to the best and most under-rated tank in the rebel force  |
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 10, 2005 18:34:33 GMT
Am I correct in thinking that power weapons stop the WBB roll?
Last time, my mate charged my Arch with 3 Pariahs, missed with every attack, TWICE! My lord finished them off in 2 turns, lucky considering how good the warscythe is.
are you sure the nightbringer stops ALL CC save rolls including inv. saves?
I charged him with my Archon and gotg him down to his last wound before failing my Shadow Field roll
[censored]... so near yet so far
2+ inv. save roll is awesome
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Post by LesserEvil on May 10, 2005 20:56:12 GMT
Yes power weapons stop WBB rolls however if there is an orb in the are of 6” then he may still make his WBB rolls no matter what.
The warscythe is a 2 handed weapon so he can never have +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons, also you go 1st and wound on 4+ killing those things with a single hit, while they need 4+ then 3+ to do a wound to you… its more then fair because you can easily kill all 3 off.
Well he is a monstrous creature so ignores normal saves, look in page 27 of the necron codex, under 0-1 C’tan. It says it clearly “Its, close combat attacks therefore ignore Inv. Saving throws.”
However here are some correction to my previous post,
#1 Gaze of death, wounds on 4+ with no saves permitted (auto hits).
#2 Pg 27 Necrodermis, “… explodes… inflicting a str 6 hit on everyone with d6. No saves possible."
It is possible to argue that for #1, and #2 you can take Inv. Saves but it’s a harsh argument.
I agree archon is great at CC however he is unsuited to killing a C’tan just because at full wounds an acrhon needs to hit and wound with 5/6 attacks (if charging) and the C’tan needs to fail all of them. The archon is best suited for taking care of Heavy infantry and HQ’s in 1 on 1 combat, however there are exceptions for everything.
If there be a need for an edit please be kind. (Ill leave it to the discretion of our friendly mods.)
@archon Zylath Deschain
The normal battle cannon is 72” as per the 2003 codex IG. However the basilisk when upgraded to indirect fire (earthshaker cannon) its max range becomes 240” and min range is 36”, otherwise its 72” as well. All the while the demolisher cannon is 24”.
Yes there are plenty of other tanks that are fantastic for specialty roles, the IG player must know which to use. But yes the Hellhound is fantastic.
Edit to respond to Archon Zylath Deschain
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Post by LesserEvil on May 19, 2005 1:38:19 GMT
Small UPDATE Question: what do I need to start up a wyche cult? Answer: in order to start a cult you need 3 things. 1) Wyches, lots and lots of wyches 2) Raiders, you need transports. 3) Warriors. The basics of a wyche cult is speed and the amazing power of the 4++ save in CC. Now in order to start up a simple 1500pts cult you need the following. 9 Wyches 1 Succubus, agoniser + splinter pistol 1 Raider Depending on how well they are equipped this will be between 200-270pts. This is a basic assault oriented squad for a wyche army. It can be equipped with a variety of different options. (Explained later) There is a need for at least three of such squads for basic troops with an additional 100-150 pts for an HQ. An additional 100-200 pts worth of warriors is also needed for two of the following roles. Either those warriors act as snipers with 2 DL to take out any Tanks, or big scary monsters or in groups of 20 they make an excellent WWP carriers which will allow for wyches to get closer to the enemy with less, or no shooting directed at them. A good investment is a Homologous which for roughly 100 points will provide with an independent character and a safe WWP transport. However being very fragile it is wise to invest in 5-10 grotesques to keep any and all (short of heavy ordinance) fire from killing of the squad. Basic tactics of the Wyche WWP army is as follows Turn 1 move the warriors and homologous 6” forward then fof another 1-6” while shooting with any heavy weapons, and or advancing with a ravager. Turn 2 keep the homologous still and move warriors 6” then fof another 1-6” while shooting with heavy weapons, followed by opening a WWP (now at turn 2 you should be rolling for reserves as they cannot come in yet.) Turn 3 move the Hemmy forward 6” reserves come in through the 1st WWP and advance 12-24” to engage enemy squads. While the warrior squad with the 2nd WWP holds still and opens the WWP or fires at the enemy. Turn 4 everything that is left comes out of WWP #2 or #1 and reaches the final/furthest enemy of goes to support units already in combat. Everyone is free to move and fire as needed. In smaller games or maps turn 1 can be skipped entirely. Disclaimer: Tactics are meant as an overview and not the full letter of the law, and were written as such. They may change depending on players and situations, army selection can very, nothing is guaranteed. Also everything will be updated further depending on how lazy i am  |
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Post by Aracor on May 22, 2005 18:29:58 GMT
I just got absolutely mauled by a 'nid player. I'm actually somewhat scared of using vehicles, because biovores poison mines (with a range of 48") automatically score a glancing hit on any open-topped vehicle they hit. But if they might help a bit more, I might risk it again. That and fragmentation grenades are AP 5, so a single frag mine into a squad will completely maul it.
The other serious problem I ran into was hormagaunts with bioplasma. That's a hit that goes off at twice the initiative of the hormagaunt, and because they're leaping, anything within 4" is considered engaged instead of two inches. And they get fleet of claw, and a 12" charge. With dark eldar armor saves being less than impressive, he got his gaunts into close combat with one of my squads the first turn, and they walked through three squads of warriors and one of wyches before I managed to stop them. By then, I had lost too much to fight off his hive tyrants and carnifex.
I had basically built my army for bug-hunting, figuring my lances and blasters could take care of the big ones.
Archon with combat drugs, shadow field, punisher, tormentor helm.
Retinue of 5 incubi, 2 warriors with splinter cannons.
Two haemonculi with scissorhands and stingers.
2 sniper squads (10 warriors, 2 with dark lances).
3 warrior squads (9 warriors, 2 with splinter cannons, 1 with a shredder, one with a blaster; 1 sybarite with a splinter pistol and agonizer.
3 wych squads (7 wyches, 1 succubus with agonizer instead of close combat weapon)
1 full warp beast squad
2 scourge squads (5 scourges, 4 with splinter cannons)
1 talos
1 jetbike squad, (4 jetbikes, 2 with blasters)
Total: 2000 points.
I was planning on using the jetbikes to tear behind his lines and deal with his biovores, get the talos into close combat and watch it rip things to shreds until something large came to deal with it, and have my warrior squads hopefully shoot his hormagaunts before they got close.
Unfortunately, he got first turn, and a good roll on his fleet of claw, his hormagaunts got into my squad the first turn. And his lictors jumped out just outside of my deployment zone, one ripping into one of my scourge squads, and the other jumping onto my talos with the help of the gaunt squad. After it got sniped a few times by zoanthropes and a hive tyrant's venom cannon. My talos died the first turn.
Things went rather downhill from there. The hormagaunts tore apart a squad of wyches and more than two of warriors before I managed to stop them By that time, I was just sheer outnumbered by artillery, zoanthropes with their strength 10 hits, and termagaunts with spine fists and BS 4.
My friend who plays nids is incredibly aggressive, so if I have time to fire once before he gets stuff tied up in close combat I should probably consider myself lucky.
Any advice on what I could have done differently?
~Aracor
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Post by LesserEvil on May 23, 2005 0:21:24 GMT
I hope you understand that most things can glance a raider so it should not worry you so much that 1-2 get taken down that way in every game, just remember that if he does not have LOS he rolls 2d6 for scatter (but check the Nid rule book I could be off) so getting a hit on the raider is unlikely.
Hehe ahh the finer points of dark eldar… learning to accept that unless you are getting shot with lass guns EVERYTHIGN will penetrate your armor, but not to worry most of his nades are Str 3 or 4 so he still has a good chance of missing or failing to wound.
The problem with nids is that they are the one army that can equal the charge range of the Dark eldar, and can out number us. Here are a few points on your list.
Generally I find Incubi to be a waste against most “experienced” nid players for 2 reasons. 1) most nids will have In 5 or 6 if they are upgraded or use bio-plasma which gives +2In attack which makes them go 1st or at the same time, and with a 12” charge range they will be charging you. 2) if they go before you or at the same time usually 1-2 bugs will have rending per squad if not more (on 6+ you don’t get a save) that’s really bad when they get 4+ attacks on a charge. In my opinion Incubi are a waste against nids.
Another problem I see is that the archon is not tooled out to kill big bugs, give him an agoniser and a pistol (instead of punisher, tormentor helm) and he can kill anything in h2h combat on the charge (6 attacks on a charge). Just make him alone because his Independent character status will keep him safe from shooting and his 6” move + d6” fof and 12” charge can get him just about anywhere.
I consider these guys amazing! However do not use stingers, get the nice compact flame template, so you can fry all the bugs at one’s.
Nice choice for taking out the big bugs.
Not bad but consider 2 things, 1) small squads get eaten alive as a basic nid has 3 attacks. 2) Mixing shredders and blasters is not a good idea pick one and stick to it (shredder vs nids).
Again good choice with In 6 nids will be hard pressed to keep up (and if they do they have to upgrade squads a lot) also your 4++ save works against bio-plasma! Or what ever their attack is that gets +2In. for Wyches wyche weapons are a must not only making the nids hit on 4+ (they could have Ws 5) but also taking away 1 attack for having 2 cc weapons. However consider beefing out the squads to more wyches 10-20 work a lot better.
Good choice these things are very underrated with 20 attacks on a charge and a 24” assault range they can make anything hurt.
hehehe these are a very, very underestimated but very fragile units, and most of the time I would not recommend them. <evil grin> but they will solve your little biovore problem. Just think of it this way (and read their special deep striking rule) they jump in pump out 16 shots which should kill the biovore problem. And they can do it no matter what mission you play (but they may not make it there until turn 3 or 4). I think it’s a good investment but its not a cheep solution.
Usually the best thing on the field of battle, but not in this case, sure its big and strong but any rending weapons will reduce the poor thing into a heap of scrap. My advice to you is to get rid of it (how I hate saying that) and put in a raveger with 3 disintegrators and night shields.
While you do have a valid idea these guys will get mauled 90% of the time, you are better of spending the points on something else, and if things go well scurges will take care of your problem.
A few more things, if you get to deploy 1st put a sacrificial squad (warpbeasts or something else) as far forward as you can. That way if he gets 1st turn warpbeasts are gone but if you deployed 6-8” away from them anything and everything should be out of consolidation range right in range of your fire. And if you get 1st turn move back the beasts and get ready here comes the swarm.
Think of using grotesques and mandrakes because if the each of their special rules and abilities. (especially mandrakes who if assaulted get to go 1st and have a 5+ cover same all the time)
Hope this helps some what.
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 28, 2005 20:13:14 GMT
I would like a decent battle plan, as at the mo, I have 2 raiders, 1 squad of 8 wyches
an archon + dracon, one with 8 incubi.
2 warrior squad on foot
3 jetbikes
2 Talos or 2 ravagers
I wish to buy a pack of warp beasts for mobility and some hellions for even more speed.
Against Necrons however, for my 3 heavy support choices, do I take 2 ravagers and a Talos, or 2 Talos and a Ravager?
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Post by LesserEvil on May 29, 2005 11:04:15 GMT
With the limit such as this I can think of several different options you can go with. I will explain the easiest to start of with (from there you can change it as much as you want).
HQ
archon (equipped any way you like) about 140pts
TROOPS
10 Warriors 2 DL = 100pts
10 Warriors 2 DL = 100pts
Heavy
1 Ravager 3 Disintegrators and Night Shields = 140pts
1 Ravager 3 Disintegrators and Night Shields = 140pts
=620pts
This is the basic core that I can think of without knowing the amount of warriors you actually have (I assume 20 in total). From here all you have to do is add 2-3 squads of snipers to make this a shooting army for a 1000pt match. Or add the dracon with 5 incubi with some gear and the raider this will bring you up to 925pts so you have a nice counter charge unit (though its expensive and you can always go with more warriors, they can always help you).
There are many ways to play to help you more I would need to know more like
1) what armies do you play against the most
2) do you like CC or shooting (yeah silly question)
3) what point value are you looking for
4) and what is the exact amount of models that you have.
Edit: i will go into more details later because i have gotten no sleap but if you could anwser some of the questions above it will help. (Brain fuzzy like rock.)
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 29, 2005 12:51:29 GMT
okay, i have a friend who collects chaos, one who collects Imperial Guard, one who collects Necrons, Daemonhunters and soon to start Tyranid.
i prefer running into CC after I realised how good asrubael Vect is in CC, destroying half a Necron army... before that [censored]ed Nightbringer immobolised it...
grrr
3. I usually play 1000 points against the 'crons.
So i have an Archon, dracon, 7 incubi
8 wyches
45 warriors (2 with DL) I could make some more... but I use all the special bits for conversions...
2 raiders
3 reavers, 2 hellions (which I can't use)
2 ravagers
2 Talos
Against Necrons, I am thinking using 1 ravager with 2 DL, 1 with 1 DL and 2 dissies to take out several warriors a turn. The Talos for a CC elemnt against his Tomb Syder, which destroyed my Wyches.
My Lord and Incubi will go against his Lord and 3 Pariahs.
The Wyches shall go after his Flayed Ones, after taking out a few of his warriors
The reavers will go for more of his warriors whilst my warriors stand back and the snipers go for his monolith, as well as the Ravager. The other warriors have SC and shall shoot the hell out of his warriors from 24" away.
The Dracon will probably go with the 5 other warriors and try to draw a bit of fire... maybe mounted on one of the Raiders
that's pretty much my crazy battle plan against the 'crons
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Post by LesserEvil on May 30, 2005 17:10:33 GMT
Ok well there are people who play shooty DE its possible and not at all hard. Now the disclaimer [all that I say may or may not work, it is just my personal experience, using your own tactics is highly recommended, use what I say as a guide line not as law.] Saying that here are a few tips.
Nice core of everything.
In 1000pts my advice for you would be as follows
2x10 warriors with 2 DL (to take out the Nightbringer if he brings it, or to snipe heavy Destroyers if they show up, to take out tanks, or big monstrous creatures).
= 200
9 warriors with 1 blaster 1 splinter cannon
1 sybarite with agoniser and Splinter pistol
1 raider
= 176
8 wyches w/ wyche weapons
1 succubus with an agoniser and Splinter pistol
1 raider
(with them rides the archon/dracon with any equipment you want to give it.
= 200 (without archon/dracon)
1-2 talos to draw fire, and to just smash things ones it gets into CC.
= 100-200
1 ravager with either 3 diss. Or 1 DL, 2 diss. This one is your preference but against Necrons Night shields are a must since all their weapons are 36” range at best.
= 105-140
= 916 that’s including everything but the HQ depending on what you are using add or subtract as you wish.
in 1k an hemmoclious is a fun way to go instead of the Archon or dracon.
However dracon with an Agoniser and a Sp, as well as Drugs and a shadow field will run 106pts if you drop the night shields on the raider the total becomes 1002 use warriors to balance out the points, or the wargear to play with the point value in this list.
My basic strategy with this list Is to put the 2 sniper squads in cover and set up some shooting lanes while hiding the ravager and raiders behind some cover and or monstrous creatures.
Turn 1 move 12-24 depending on terrain with raiders, and 6-12 with ravager to get a good shooting zone. (remember is you take down the entire squad of necrons they cant get up unless there is a like squad within 6-12”) so if you can concentrate on squads to wipe them out. Especially destroyers (he cant take more then 1 squad of 5 in 1k point game) wipe em out in one round of shooting and if they all go down then they don’t get back up.
Turn 2 move 12-24 as needed and get out charge if you can remember necrons are not fearless so they can fall back and when they do (assuming you sweeping advance them) they will be permanently destroyed unable to get back up. Fire what ever you can and kill the necron lord if you can charge him it is a good idea as long as you can tie up him and 1 more squad.
Turn 3 do what ever it takes.
Just remember nothing is set in stone, and don’t worry about checking on the rules and asking questions of everyone and everything. Because the more you know the less you will have to ask later and the faster and smoother the games in the future will go. Just have fun and good luck.
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