Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 30, 2005 21:39:13 GMT
Cheers...
that actually helped quite a lot
are Hellions actually a worthy purchase, became you're paying an extra... points for an extra 6" move and special wyxh things
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Post by LesserEvil on May 30, 2005 22:05:28 GMT
I am glad that I could help a bit.
Personally I love hellions (although I have yet to use them) the 12” movement is fantastic and the extra drugs can work wonders (think str 5 on a charge from DE!) however their rules need to fixed badly (they cant charge 12” even if they get that drug, instead they act “crazed” which is nice, but not to good as per update) as well as the hellglaive needing an update with the 4th Ed rapid fire rules.
But the 12 movement and the 5++ save as well as the hit and run ability makes them quite nasty against quite a few armies with low armor saves (guard, ork, tyranids, Tau, eldar) especially when you can jump in cleave out 3-5 casualties then next turn jump out and assault another unit doing the same thing. It can work wonders! But they take a lot of skill to use because they still are fragile and to3 will hurt quite a bit if they get hit back.
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on May 31, 2005 7:55:42 GMT
If I was, say, under attack from the new 'nids, should I have a go at the counter attack tactic in the Codex, as the splinter cannons and splinter rifles could do quite a bit against advancing Tyranids right?
If I mounted them on a raider, I could just fly away 24" and shoot again...
3 dissies could work wonders and a Talos to attempt to go toe to toe with carnifex's? Low initiative, but the carnie ha a terrible weapons skill compared to the Talos, and the possibility of 7 attacks with no saves? Sweet
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Post by LesserEvil on May 31, 2005 21:33:13 GMT
It is worth a shot however you need big squads to make it work, and your best range is 12-24” which is the max move-charge range for nids (small fast bugs), so it might not work but it is worth a shot.
Move 12” and shoot, you cant move 24” and and shoot unless you mean turbo-boost and then you still cant do it until next turn. It is a good idea especially if your entire army is mounted that way you will always be just out of range on skimmers.
Yep that will work however consider having an archon with an agoniser eating the big bugs, you hit on 2+ reroll misses and wound on 4+ ignoring the 2+ save. While it needs 6+ just to hit you. (assuming it has Ws2 as I remember vs the carnefex.) other big bugs will usually have In on the talos, however its still a good idea to watch it rip apart those big nasty monsters the Nid players seam oh so fond of.
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Post by Archon Faraith on May 31, 2005 22:04:03 GMT
*And Lo, the mighty and powerful Archon Faraith came down from his personal raider and he did smite all around him whilst declaring in a bellowing voice "Agonisers are not the solution to everything" (altough it would do nicely here)*
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on Jun 1, 2005 16:08:30 GMT
If an Archon was against like, a T2 character, would he still only wound on a 4+?
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Post by Archon Faraith on Jun 1, 2005 16:21:16 GMT
Yes. Agonisers always wound on 4+. If you're facing low toughness oponents then the punisher and +1 strenght combat drug option would be better.
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Post by LesserEvil on Jun 1, 2005 20:19:23 GMT
However since most armies you will face will be Space marines or Necrons, chances are that 4+ will be the best you can do, also an agoniser allows for a lot more flexibility then the punisher.
I wonder if i should write on that subject.
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Radio
Inhabitant
Death is my meat, terror is my wine.
Posts: 21
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Post by Radio on Jun 2, 2005 18:05:53 GMT
go for it.
I need all the help I can get
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Post by archon ko'zrohc on Jun 3, 2005 6:48:10 GMT
everyones always debating the agoniser / punisher wich is best? thing. ide like to hear it from the tactic master
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Post by Archon No'ki on Jun 3, 2005 10:58:17 GMT
Well its clear that from Lesser's point of view the agoniser is better, but I just think its a case of what role you want your lord to take on the battle field.
When I take my Archon to battle she's always acumpanied by her incubi on a Raider and she is equipped to compliment them; Punisher, Tormentor helm, Combat Drugs, Shadow Filed. This combonation means that she is very powerful with a chance of 6 S5 rerollable power weapon attacks and a 2+ Inv Sv just incase anyone wants to try and strike back. Couple this with about (if you max out the squad) another 27 S4 power weapon attacks on the charge and usaly their wont be alot left of any unit that finds itself in an Assult with No'ki.
My Dracon on the other hand I have to admit is usely equipped with an Agoniser. This is because he is normaly used to dispose of any piece of armour which could become a thorn in the side of the rest of my kabal. I mount him on a Jetbike so he can get about the battlefield alot quicker and so can respond to threats. The way I equip him means that he's not that great aginst larger units of infanty, even with his Reaver mounted bodyguards, but he has got me out of more than one Dreadnaught created jam.
So realy I think its just a case of what role you want your lord to take on the battle field as to whether its better to give them a Punisher or an Agoniser.
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Post by LesserEvil on Jun 4, 2005 3:17:23 GMT
My fingers itch to write a proper response, however first ill collect some hard data (ill be playing most of the day tomorrow and will use both an agoniser / punisher HQ's so that i can write some on it). As well as be in a tourney on Sunday, so lots of fun to be had.
oh that pleases my ego greatly <drools a little> yes it does. But for the future please don’t praise me like that (if indeed it was for me) because it goes right to my head (and we all know over inflation is a bad thing). Just add Karma.
OK think on the AG/PU i remember reading a few things on diff. boards on it and here is a small quote from a different website that illustrates a few points.
Thats just to start of with (numbers not done by me as i am bad with math) i will add more tomorrow but there are a few things to think about. #1) what do you want your lord to do, to kill big scary To 5+ monsters or to be able to rip through most infantry. #2) Will your HQ have a retinue or not? (If yes then then which one?) #3) what roll does you HQ usually play? (HQ killer, support unit, counter charge?) #4) Who do you play the most? (To 3, To 4, To 5)
Just answer these questions and you should know which one you have a better use for.
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Post by Archon Faraith on Jun 4, 2005 8:53:31 GMT
Put simply, unless your insane and like charging your archon at Dreadnaughts and your not facing alot of Toughness6 + stuff that the punisher is better. Only against T6 and dreads is it worse. how much T6 stuff is there out there that you want your Archont o charge, and if you wanna kill dreads, get a dracon on a bike with an agoniser.
Oh im working under the asumption that you take the +1 strength combat drug.
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Post by LesserEvil on Jun 4, 2005 16:01:51 GMT
I think everyone would like to avoid charging dreads with anything short of a Talos.
As for the Punisher vs Agoniser It becomes a matter or preference because there are a lot of To 5 armies out there now, as well as the ever present nids with To 7+, Wraithlords To 8, as well as other big nasty monsters which become really annoying. While a punisher will work just fine against anything To 4 and less it becomes less effective with To 5+ because of the drug choices you would have to make (admit it taking 3 drug choices is not the best idea) while with an Agoniser you wound everything on 4+ and the only drug choices you really need are +1 Attack and re-roll misses. While with the Punisher +1 str, +1 Attack and re-roll misses are needed. So unless you like risking 3 drug choices you max out on 2 drugs with a punisher while and Agoniser is still just fine with taking the max it really needs (2).
For me it is a question of balance, and AG will wound roughly the same way on anything you attack, be it To 2 or To 8. While a punisher is a great troop killer is only so effective against To 5.
Also factoring in the point value An archon with AG (agoniser), SF (shadow field), CD (combat drugs), PG (plasma grenades), HG (haywire grenades), TR (trophy racks) = 142 pts While An archon with PU (Punisher), TH (tormentor helm), SF, CD, PG, HG, TR = 146 pts
Sure a small point difference but its there. Those points could be spent elsewhere. (not to mention that the AG archon does not really need the grenades but having to take less drug choices Is always better).
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Post by Archon Faraith on Jun 4, 2005 17:42:14 GMT
I just personnally prefer the Punisher combo as it allows me more wounding potential against Eldar and Guard and stuff specialy as i steer clear of really tough things with my Archon as id rather he mashed up less tough things.
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